Notandi:Spacebirdy/staðhæfing

Úr Wikiorðabók, frjálsu orðabókinni
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In response to http://hjalli.com/?p=305

Email-correspondence, the real names and email-adresses have been crossed out and the responses are not shown because the emails are not public:

dagsetning: 17.4.2008 00:35

títill: Re:Tilkynning til Wiktionary Halló,
Enginn frá Wikiorðabókinni er að 'afrita' þessa síðuna!
Wikiorðabókin er ekki um beygingarlýsingar hún er orðabók. Og íslenskt mál er ekki höfundarréttarvarið efni.
Ég nota síðuna ykkar til að skrifa rétta íslensku.

Takk.

-no response.

dagsetning: 17.4.2008 03:36

títill: Re:Tilkynning til Wiktionary
P.S.
(I write that in English to make myself more clear)
I do not mind if You block our IPs.
I just don't quite understand Your reasoning, we are not copying or doing Your site any harm.
If You had contacted us just normally maybe explaining what exactly Your problem is or what You expect of us we could have arranged something. Maybe links to a reference. We do not hide, to contact us is quite easy.


Since I do not expect any answer from You, bæ & blessuð

-response not shown.

dagsetning: 17.4.2008 13:19

títill: Re:Tilkynning til Wiktionary
Sæll <XY>,
takk fyrir svarið.


Ég staðhæfi ennþá að við erum ekki að afrita.
Við notuðum ykkar síðuna sem tilvísun, eins og aðrar síður, eða orðabækur. Áður en skrifa grein ber ég þýðingar, beygingar, samheiti, andheiti, o.s.frv. saman við margar! tilvísanir mínar, þetta er mikið af vinnu og ekki afrita. Við erum ekki launuð, bara að læra íslensku. Allir rithöfundar þessarar síðu eru bara sjálfboðaliðar. Líttu á orðum vikunnar okkar (einnig eldri orð vikunnar), upplýsingar þarna eru ekki afrituð frá engan stað, eða að finna hvergi.
Ég met mikils starfið ykkar og er þakklát fyrir það og gæti mér ímyndað til að tengja síðuna í sérhverjum sniðum. Eða ef þið eruð með aðra uppástungu hóið í mig yfir tölvupóst.
En ef þið vilji það ekki eða ef þið vilji ekki að ég nota ykkar síðuna sem tilvísun ég vil heimsækja þessa síðu aldrei framar. (önnur ástæðan okkur (íslenskunemanda) vantar tilvísun sem við megum nota án vera blokkaður).


Einhvern veginn er ég stolt af þessa svörun ykkar af því að Wikiorðabókin er ekki lengur óathyglisverð og smá (þegar ég byrjaði að vinna þarna, þar voru til bara um það bil 4-10 orð ;) ).


Kær kveðja, <me/ég>

-no response.


-other correspondence that was exchanged between another user who contacted the site and the site, the answer from them was cc-sent to me

dagsetning: 18.4.2008 14:09

Hello all,
thanks for copying the message to me.
I repeat myself here, because You do too:


  • ) I, or <other user> did not copy any "data from Beygingarlýsing into Wiktionary"
  • ) "A new word appears in Wiktionary 2-3 minutes after it had been searched for in Beygingarlýsing" It seems obvious You do not want people to look at Your website to compare their knowledge with Your site, we said that we will not consult Your website again.

We do stand to our words, there is no need to make, sorry to say, such subtile tests like with "faraldur". I don't know what You are used to deal with, but when I say something I stand to it, same for <other user>, we are friends now for years and I know he stands to what he says too. Still You are welcomed in the Icelandic Wiktionary.

  • ) Declensions are no secret and the Icelandic language is not copyrighted, we did not copy from Your site. (Your test "faraldur" should have shown You)



And yes, it pobably got started at the wrong foot, but it seems to continue. I was offering to You to link Your site because it is (or rather was) of high value for Icelandic learners and I guess also for Icelanders. Also I am open to other suggestions, but I also have limits here, I do not accept that we are continuously being accused of lying.


We do also link to http://lexis.hi.is/cgi-bin/ritmal/leitord.cgi?adg=innsl I ask You here openly if You want that, I can remove the links from all entries right now in no time.

I did not expect something like that. If I had known that consulting Your site would bring so much trouble I would have stayed far far away from it.

Thanks.

-answer of them and the <other user> not shown.

dagsetning: 18.4.2008 22:32

Hello all,


thanks for linking the blog, interesting.


I stumbled over the passage:
A pattern consistent with someone copying the data by hand.
That is interesting because mostly we use templates for declensions, we do not fill them out by hand,
example: {{Fallbeyging kk sb 05 ö|far|ld|ur}} generates the full declension table in the entry.
The reason why from the beginning I wanted every different declension in a different template is, that with this we can make, because of the wiki-software, a link to all words that are to be declined the same way, also the declension could be changed quickly for all entries that use the template if there is an error or change. Don't bother about the naming, that is not shown to the reader (it is a pattern in my head, a try of systematic naming of templates, which helps me to recognize which template to use quickly).
This is something I missed in all my books when I started learning this beautiful language. This is also not available in Your site.
I have this idea from a Spanish verb conjugation book I own and used a lot when I learned that language decades ago, it is also a feature I have seen on Verbix. (Maybe an idea for Your database too, I don't know how easy You could do something like that) So, I am concluding that the copying by hand is mostly not even possible.


Because You asked for it:
"Apart from that - we welcome your ideas about a possible arrangement for cooperation."
What I can think of is a link, now it depends on the encoding of the url for Your site how or where I can add it, because:
for example
rólegur
is

  • r%C3%B3legur in our url

in the ritmálskrá for example it is

  • r%F3legur

if just entered as rólegur it would end up as

  • rólegur in the ritmálskrá and on other sites we link.

Therefore I do replace the characters with a bot from time to time so that the links work (in case I forget to write them correctly while doing the entry)
If the word in Your url for special characters is like
á= %E1, ð= %F0, é= %E9, í=%ED, ó= %F3, ú= %FA, ý= %FD, þ=%FE, æ= %E6, ö= %F6
it is a bit more problematic but not impossible, as said, there are other sites that can be linked like this, it is only a bit more work.
But I don't want to bore You with techincal details, do You want to be linked, if yes, would You think the bottom of each declension template is ok, if yes, what is the advantage for Wiktionary, do we get a link back or what else could You offer in return.

Best regards, <me/ég>

-no answer.

Instead I am being contacted by concerned people, which is why I am publishing my emails.
Those people who contacted me are not contributors here, but they have been told that Wiktionary is copying.
Because of this continued denunciation of Wiktionary and it's users I must say that I have lost any interest in linking that site in question.

--geimfyglið (:> )=| 21. apríl 2008 kl. 14:56 (UTC)

I got an email today after I send this site to the participants of the discussion, which I am allowed to publish here.

dagsetning: 21.4.2008 18:08

Takk fyrir þetta.

Eina ástæðan fyrir því að svar hefur ekki borist er að það var helgi og ég hef haft öðrum hnöppum að hneppa.

Ég setti inn svar við kommenti á blogginu mínu sem svarar þínu erindi að einhverju leiti.

Ég bið almennt um þolinmæði í þessu máli. Eins og ég hef reynt að útskýra er þetta flókið mál og við viljum ekki láta þetta hafa neikvæð áhrif á skoðanir fólks sem t.d. ræður aðgangi að miklu meiri upplýsingum en bara BÍN.

Það væri alveg stórkostlegt ef við næðum saman í þessu og gætum þannig jafnvel leyft afritun af BÍN inn á Wiktionary og notað svo áhuga Wiktionary samfélagsins til að leiðrétta það, efla og bæta enn frekar.

Ég bið þig líka um að leiðrétta það að ég fullyrði enn að um afritun hafi verið að ræða. Það kemur skýrt fram í blogginu mínu að ég sé ekki lengur sannfærður um að svo hafi verið.

Þetta mál er að vekja mikla athygli mjög v íða, sem er gott. Við megum ekki missa það úr böndunum þannig að allir lendi í skotgröfunum, heldur nýta athyglina til að ná árangri fyrir alla í miklu stærra samhengi en þetta mál eitt og sér.

Ímyndaðu þér allar upplýsingarnar sem liggja hjá Orðabókinni og öðrum opinberum stofnunum sem eru ekki einu sinni á stafrænu formi ennþá, hvað þá á vefnum. Ímyndaðu þér ef við gætum fengið aðgang að þessum gögnum opnaðan og skýran öllum til hagsbóta!

Ég óttast að þú áttir þig ekki á því hvað ég er mikið í "ykkar liði" í þessu máli og hvað mikil vinna er óunnin til að sannfæra þá sem á endanum ráða þessum málum um að opinn aðgangur sé leiðin fram á við.

Þú hefur fullt leyfi til að birta efni þessa pósts opinberlega, og þó við höfum ekki rætt það sérstaklega varðandi aðrar bréfaskriftir sem okkur hafa farið á milli, þá er það mér að skaðlausu líka.

Bestu kveðjur, <XY>

Thanks for that.

The only reason that a reply hasn't arrived is that it was the weekend and I have been busy.

I made a reply to a comment on my blog that answers your inquire to some extent.

I generally ask for patience in this case. As I have tried to explain, this is a complex issue and we do not want this to have a negative influence on the opinions of people who control access to much more information than just BÍN.

It would be great if we could reach together in this and so even allow the copying of BÍN into Wiktionary and then use the interest of the Wiktionary community to correct it, strengthen and improve even further.

I also ask you to correct that I still claim that copying was involved. It is clear on my blog that I am no longer convinced that it was.

This case is attracting a lot of attention widely, which is a good thing. We cannot lose control of it so that everyone gets stuck in the trenches, but use the attention to achieve success in a much larger context than this single case.

Imagine all the information that the Dictionary and other official institutions that aren't even digitised yet, let alone on the web. Imagine if we could get access to this data, open and clear to everyone's interest!

I fear that you do not realise how much I am on "your side" in this issue and how much work there is still to be done to convince those who ultimately control the issue that open access is the way forwards.

You have full permission to publish the contents of this mail publicly, and though we haven't discussed it particularly regarding other correspondence between us, it would be of no harm to me.

Best greetings, <XY>

I am hopeing this is meant as is and am looking forward to cooperation between us if it comes to such.
Takk.

--geimfyglið (:> )=| 21. apríl 2008 kl. 21:26 (UTC)